5: How to make a book work for your business.

by Sue Richardson with Dave Harries and Bryony Thomas

In Episode 5 of The Right Book Project, we welcome entrepreneur, speaker and expert author Bryony Thomas to the studio.

In an engaging and entertaining interview, Bryony tells us all about her journey to becoming a published, expert author as we discover how she has skilfully and strategically used her award-winning, bestselling book to not only grow her reputation as one of the UK’s foremost marketing experts, but also to build her marketing business whilst simultaneously establishing the credibility and authority of her unique ‘Watertight Marketing’ philosophy.

If you’ve ever wondered whether publishing a book will really benefit you and your business, Bryony’s experience is living proof of just how far-reaching and exciting the opportunity can be.

with thanks to Dave Harries of CommunicateTV: www.communicatetv.co.uk

Join us now in the Right Book Project Facebook Group

Bryony Thomas

Bryony Thomas is one of the UK’s foremost marketing thinkers and is the author of the award-winning Watertight Marketing, which has been in the bestseller lists consistently for over five years.  Bryony is also an in-demand professional speaker for business audiences wanting to understand how to deliver sustainable sales results. Whether it’s a boardroom, team day, or a large conference venue, Bryony can be trusted to inspire, engage and entertain. But, more importantly people will leave her talks with immediate actions to take. She has a unique and memorable speaking style.

Watertight Marketing

Are you wasting your money on marketing? Most businesses are. They’ve got serious profit leaks. So when they run their marketing Taps, revenue simply pours out of a leaky Bucket. Watertight Marketing is no ordinary marketing book. There’s no jargon. And it’s not about the latest over-hyped tactic. This is a book that tackles business fundamentals. It’s the book on marketing that makes all the others make sense. Following the process laid out in this book puts you in control of your business growth. You’ll be able to step off the roller coaster of yo-yo sales results and get your business on a sustainable upward curve. Bryony Thomas has a refreshing style that means the ideas click and stick. She has distilled her wealth of experience into clear action points that you’ll want to tackle today.

Podcast Transcript

Transcript provided by Copysure Editorial Services: www.copysure.co.uk

Dave Harries: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Right Book Project, a Right Book Company radio production. My name is Dave Harries. I’m here with my co-presenter, Sue Richardson, to explore the whys and wherefores of book publishing, and how writing a book can enhance your business and personal profile. Sue is a publishing expert who’s been in the book business for many years and she’s written her own book – The Authority Guide to Publishing Your Business Book. She’s the director of SRA books and The Right Book Company and has helped hundreds of professionals, entrepreneurs, experts and thought leaders boost their businesses and profile with game-changing books. This podcast is all about you and your journey to writing a book. So, please get involved by joining our Facebook group, the Right Book Project, or tweet @therightbookco. You’ll find notes, links, recordings and transcripts of these podcasts on therightbookcompany.com. On today’s podcast, we are very excited because we’ve got a special guest in the studio, Bryony Thomas of Watertight Marketing. Welcome Bryony. Now, Bryony has not only written a book called Watertight Marketing, but she has a business called Watertight Marketing, and those two things, the book and the business, are strategically interrelated, I would say, from talking to Bryony and from reading the book. And that’s why we’re so interested in what Bryony has to say about her journey to publishing the book and how it helped her business. So, Bryony, perhaps you could start by just giving us a little bit of an overview of what Watertight Marketing is, what the business is.


Bryony Thomas: [00:01:27] Yes, thank you. Delighted to be here. Watertight Marketing is the business based on the book and essentially, the book is a set of thinking tools. It’s a set of frameworks, templates and tools to organize your thoughts and make confident decisions about marketing. The way that people use those it’s mainly in two ways: we have business owners and marketers who go through our courses, and we have a flagship program called The Masterplan Program, but we also license the materials to consultants and experts who want to use those tools to think clearly with their own clients.


Dave Harries: [00:02:00] I’m fascinated by the fact that the book and the business are completely interrelated because obviously not many businesses, let’s face it, have a book to go with them, as it were. But was that always your intention right from the start? Book and business, sort of doing two parts of the same job?


Bryony Thomas: [00:02:17] Yes, very much so. The business plan came before the book. So, when I designed the plan for Watertight Marketing, I was a ‘time for money’ marketing consultant and there’s only so much time. Where you got to the point where we were having, I don’t know, we were turning people away about three to one. It was myself and one other. I kept drawing all the same diagrams, using the same metaphor and describing things in the same way, and it broke my heart not to be able to point people in the direction of somewhere they could [get} help but when we didn’t have the time to do so. So, I set about understanding how I might overcome that ‘time for money’ trap; and how we might capture the way that we’ve worked with clients in a way that was more accessible. And a book certainly was part of that. But I knew that it wouldn’t be the end. It was the fulcrum of the business that we’ve built which is now training and licensing business.


Dave Harries: [00:03:10] And would you say that, with the benefit of hindsight and having done it and been successful with it, is the book an essential part of that success? I mean, do you think you could have done it without the book, I suppose?


Bryony Thomas: [00:03:24] Yeah, it’s a great question, and many people obviously come to this the other way around, where they’ve built a business and reputation over many years and a book comes later, almost as a celebration of success. Whereas mine was very much the other way around. Could I have done it? Yes, probably, but not as well and not as completely. So, I think the key thing that writing the book gave me, was that it challenged me to sequence my materials, which I think is one of the key elements of Watertight that’s really specific. So, by writing it, I had to really think through the order in which the ideas were layered. And it also made me look at the internal integrity of the methodology. So, by writing it, the methodology improved; the tools improved and the way that I described them improved. So yes, I could have, but I wouldn’t have wanted to.


Dave Harries: [00:04:15] Okay. Well, let me just bring Sue in quickly because Sue, I want to ask you; the way Bryony has done it, writing the book first, as it were, instead of as a celebration, later, of success, as she said. Is that pretty unusual?


Sue Richardson: [00:04:29] No, I don’t think it’s necessarily unusual. I mean, I think that often a book can be a sort of…how can you describe it? Something that speeds things up. And I think that’s clearly what’s happened in Bryony’s case. And I think also that whole thing of what Bryony says about the thinking things through so that she really tightened up the methodology and really understood how it would all work, partly because she gave herself that time to really look closely at it all, in the writing of the book. And I would say that in itself isn’t unusual. I think that what is different about what Bryony’s done, is the fact that she was so strategic about it. She knew exactly what she wanted with the book. Many, many people, as Bryony said, maybe start to build a business; see the potential in a business; look at what they’ve got in terms of expertise and know-how and throw a book out because they can. Bryony has, right from the start, clearly really integrated the two, and seen the book as a business tool. And I think, has not only done that in order to grow that business, but has also created brilliantly, at the same time, a vehicle that has drawn a lot of attention to your business, would you agree, Bryony? I mean, actually what a fantastic marketing tool the book has been, as well as being the thing that holds the methodology of the business and gives you the ownership of that methodology in a fantastic way, but actually also tells the world about it. And you’ve sold many, many books.


Bryony Thomas: [00:06:18] Yes. It’s incredible, actually. I think one of the things that I underestimated, in putting the book out there, is the life it would have on its own. Without, you know, without me pushing it. Someone said to me, I think it was Dee Blick, the author of the Small Business Marketing Ultimate Guide [The Ultimate Small Business Marketing Book], I think that’s what it’s called. Anyway, she’s a great marketer. And she said to me that good books don’t date, they put down roots. And it was a really lovely phrase from Dee, and it’s been true. So, there was a very interesting thing that happened to me in the first year, and I say interesting, it was very difficult, but shortly after my book came out, my father died. And it meant that the launch activity I had planned, simply didn’t happen. I didn’t have a launch party, in fact, I didn’t really look at where the book was in its ratings for nearly nine months. I didn’t promote it in any way. And when I came back to it nine, 10 months later, it’d been in its best sellers list the whole time. And so, we did a book birthday party on the first year and it was amazing to see how something, that people find naturally, can gain its own momentum.


Dave Harries: [00:07:45] I want to ask you now a little bit about the ‘why’ of writing a book. I know in a sense you’ve already answered that. But, in our very first episode of this podcast series, we talked about ‘why’ a great deal and how it’s so important to have a ‘why’ before you set out on these things. So, clearly, you know, part of your ‘why’ was you were starting a business; you wanted to get your thinking together. Was there an overarching ‘why’ there though, that would go above all of that?


Bryony Thomas: [00:08:15] Absolutely. And of course that’s the ‘why’ behind the business, isn’t it? So, for me, and I say this in a number of my talks, when someone says to me that their marketing isn’t working, it’s not the ‘m’ word I hear. I work with business owners who are owner/managers usually, having left corporate life, I work with much smaller businesses. And so, when someone tells me that their marketing is not working, I hear that they’ve put their mortgage, their marriage and their mental health on the line and it’s not working. And so, when I see someone who is on to something; who’s put everything into something and they have the makings of some success, with a few small tweaks they could get payback on that effort, I’m almost physically compelled to help them. And so, getting this down on paper was, in many ways, my way of gifting this to as many people as humanly possible.


Dave Harries: [00:09:07] I love the idea that you’re physically compelled to help them. That is brilliant. That is the very definition of enthusiasm, I think and that comes across talking to you. This podcast is obviously about writing books. And so, what we really are desperate to know from you, or what I’m desperate to know from you anyway, is a bit about the process and how you went about it. Because it’s all very well saying: Oh, I’m going to write a book; I’m going to have a business; I’m going to integrate the two, and that’s fantastic. But you’ve then got to do it. So, how did you start? How do you get going?


Bryony Thomas: [00:09:39] Yes, great question. I think everybody approaches it slightly differently. I mean, there are common themes, I think, which is: procrastination, imposter syndrome, delay, you know, all of these things. I first started talking about my book, and I say that in inverted commas, because it didn’t exist, at least five years before it came out. I put proposals into a number of the traditional publishers; I had an outline without any further text for two years. And eventually, the way that I got started on getting over that procrastination was that I went to a conference of the Professional Speaking Association, and I met Mindy Gibbins-Klein, and I spent a weekend in which we took the book outline and turned into a writing plan. And then I spent 12 weeks writing without stopping. Twelve weeks to get to a first full draft. I was three months pregnant when I started writing, and so, the first full draft was completed about a week before I gave birth. And I didn’t pick it up again for about six months, not least because I could barely read.


Dave Harries: [00:10:58] No, fair enough. I think you had a good excuse. And once you did get around to picking up again, were you surprised at what you saw? You know, thought: oh wow, did I write this? Or did was there a lot of revision to do.


Bryony Thomas: [00:11:10] Yeah, it’s a great question. And you know, I’ve reflected a lot on that pause. And I think the book is extensively enhanced by there being a pause between writing the first draft and then coming to do the final draft. So, when I came back to it, I think I was able to read it much more like a reader. I was more distanced from it than one would have been if I had continued straight through. And so, actually putting it down and putting it down so completely, because I was in a completely different world of being a new mother and sleepless, that I was able to come back to it with that distance and I think it was greatly enhanced for coming back to it after a pause.


Dave Harries: [00:11:52] Sue, is that, again talking about process and the getting going, writing a book, again, is the way the Bryony did it fairly common? Not obviously, being pregnant necessarily, but having that pause before you look at the second draft?


Sue Richardson: [00:12:07] No, and what great advice for our listeners, that if you can build that in – you don’t necessarily have to get pregnant to do it, I would say.


Dave Harries: [00:12:18] Our male listeners, that’s good news for our male listeners.


Sue Richardson: [00:12:20] Well planned there! Yes, exactly. But no, I think, what great advice. And if you can afford to take, maybe six months is it little longer, but take a pause between first draft. Go away…I do think that’s great advice, generally. Go away from it; take a break.


Bryony Thomas: [00:12:39] At least a holiday. I think, put your mind somewhere different.


Sue Richardson: [00:12:42] Absolutely. And come back to it and try to see it from slightly outside of yourself. And of course, you do need some distance for that. A great way to do it, if you can possibly do that.


Dave Harries: [00:12:56] And the advantage, of course, of having a brand-new baby is that you have no choice but for your mind to be elsewhere. I mean you are transported to a new planet, basically.


Bryony Thomas: [00:13:05] Absolutely! Absolutely, and if you don’t have the advantage of having just given birth – always described as an advantage in business, isn’t it, for a woman to have just given birth? I think go travelling; do something crazy. When you focus for such a period of time on a body of work, I think actually taking your mind and putting it somewhere completely different. What’s 12 weeks, what’s two weeks? Would you like the right book, or would you like a book done quickly? And I think that’s the question to ask.


Dave Harries: [00:13:36] I’d like to turn now to having written the book, got to get it published. You’ve got to find somebody who wants to actually turn it into a beautiful printed thing. So, how did you go about that? And I know you chose the independent publishing route. I’d love to know why you chose that, because you did have a choice.


Bryony Thomas: [00:13:54] I certainly did have a choice, yes. So, the book had been…the proposal had been in front of a number of traditional publishers. I was very close to closing in on a deal from a very large publisher, that you will all know, and they want…the key wobble on that contract came when they wanted me to change the title. Essentially, they wanted me to make a really glib promise. They wanted me to call it something like ‘Double your Profits in 10 Weeks’ or some nonsensical thing like that. And I wasn’t willing to make a promise that wasn’t true. And so, we got into a reasonably extended discussion, in which they said the ends justify the means; and I said not for me. Because it wouldn’t be true to my values and it wouldn’t be true to what we’re building. And so, it made me look at some other options and when I was looking at the other options, I actually found that, for the business strategy that I put together, the independent publishing route was far superior. And I know people might find that odd. But there was an interesting question that someone asked me when I was weighing this up which was: think of your top five favourite business books. Which I did. and then they said: can you tell me who publishes them? And I couldn’t. And it suddenly dawned on me that I have no idea who publishes the books that I go back to time and time again. I know the book and I know the author. And so, it suddenly took the pressure off me to want a certain badge on the book. And I took the time to think really more clearly about how I wanted to use the book. And things that were important for me were the integrity; being able to determine what was done with it; the flexibility of being able to do short print runs; of being able to do specials; of being able to use the content in various ways and the ownership of the intellectual property in its entirety. Because for me as a licensing business that ownership was critical.


Dave Harries: [00:15:55] Sue, tell us quickly, for listeners who are relatively new to publishing, which I’m guessing will be quite a few of them. What does independent publishing actually mean from a technical point of view and how does it differ from some going to an established publisher?


Sue Richardson: [00:16:08] Essentially, the independent route that Bryony took, and indeed that we offer at The Right Book Company, is where an author is in control of the rights to the book; and actually has a level of control over what goes into the book; and works with a publisher, a professional publisher, to make that book happen; so that their professional services are the same as they would receive, but the business relationship is different. So, the author pays the publisher in the independent route, instead of the publisher paying the author in the traditional route. I mean, that’s in a nutshell. The author contract therefore between the publisher and the author, the agreement between the publisher and the author, is a completely different contract, because there’s a business contract between the author and the independent publishing services provider, if you like; which essentially says we will do X Y Z for you; you will continue to own it. It may have our badge on it; it may have our imprint on it, but it’s your content, it’s up to you to do what you wish with that content. With a traditional publisher, clearly, they are investing in the project themselves. They need to have some ownership of that. And while they may not want the whole copyright of the book, they will absolutely have a necessity to have the right to do what they want and to exploit that right however they wish.


Bryony Thomas: [00:17:48] Yeah, and I also think people are very short term in the way they assess the money flow here. Because I think often people think: well I’m getting an advance and therefore, clearly, it’s better to go down the traditional route. I can’t find this money to pay for it. But the advance is an advance. It’s not extra money. So, it’s taken out of the royalties. There’s no more money either way. The other thing that I have to factor in was that I wanted to be able to give away thousands of copies of my book. I want to package in with speaking deals, at conferences and that sort of thing. And through an independent publisher, it’s a much better price than were I with a traditional publisher. And so, I think it’s really important, when you’re weighing up the financials of your book business plan, to really consider how you want to use it and scenario out the costs involved. Because an upfront payment might seem seductive, but I think in the long term it often doesn’t pay in the way that people think.


Dave Harries: [00:18:55] I understand all that, but presumably then there is still, as an author, you have to invest some of your own capital, as it were, into the project. So, I suppose that’s, as you say, you’ve got to weigh it up, it’s a cashflow issue in the end, I suppose. And that sort of thing.


Bryony Thomas: [00:19:12] No it’s not, it’s a confidence issue. It’s not a cash flow issue.


Dave Harries: [00:19:15] Right okay.


Bryony Thomas: [00:19:16] And I kind of feel that that’s what people need to…sorry to jump in. I feel quite strongly about it.


Dave Harries: [00:19:20] No, no, not at all, That’s why you’re here.


Bryony Thomas: [00:19:22] Thank you. I just think, if you truly have a business plan for your book and it is the right book and you have confidence in your business plan, why wouldn’t you put your own money behind it? Because if you think it’s cashflow, and that’s essentially, saying: I don’t think this book’s going to work.


Dave Harries: [00:19:37] And also, let me ask you, you’re a marketing expert so I’m sure this is close to your heart, but one thinks of…again, one of the things we’ve talked about, Sue and I’ve talked about in these podcasts, is the marketing of books; and that is all very well publishing a book, but you’ve got to get people to read it. Now, I appreciate yours is perhaps a slightly interesting case because it’s integrated with the business. But was there ever a point where you thought: oh well, if I went with a traditional publisher, they’ll kind of do some marketing for me? They have networks already. They have, you know, outlets, as it were. So, where do you stand on that issue?


Bryony Thomas: [00:20:11] Another seduction isn’t true. So actually, if you investigate and talk to people who’ve published via both routes, I don’t think there’s any author who sold a good quantity of books who hasn’t done most of the marketing. I think whilst publishers have good distribution routes, and that’s probably one of the key advantages; if you are publishing a niche book of a business title, honestly, you’re going to have to do the legwork yourself. Whether you’re with a traditional publisher or not. I think perhaps if you go with a traditional publisher the difference will be you’ll be more disappointed that you are having to do the work that you thought they would.


Dave Harries: [00:20:48] So, this is really interesting stuff, isn’t it? Clearly, Bryony has been there and done it, she’s got the T-shirt, and is this your experience too? I mean, you’ve been around publishing for a long time, you’re an expert in this field. I mean, presumably, you’re nodding your head at the moment, I’m guessing you agree with Bryony.


Sue Richardson: [00:21:06] It’s one of the things that I think that I hear more than anything else from authors who’ve gone down the traditional route, is this level of disappointment that they seem to have. And I know from working with Paul, who you know obviously, works with us, and he’s been in both camps, if you like, as a book marketer. And that actually authors continually feel that it’s the publisher’s responsibility to market and promote the book. And in reality, that simply cannot be done. And you know what, I’ve said for donkey’s years, is actually there’s a very good reason for that. And that is actually, it’s much better done by the author. Because the author knows their market. The publisher knows, as Bryony said, the publisher has the ability to create the distribution routes; the routes to market need to be there. And the better those routes to market are, the better the book has a chance of succeeding. But the real success comes from the efforts that the author will put into the book. If you look at the guidelines to present a proposal to a traditional publisher, you will see that at least two thirds of the questions, that a publisher will ask of an author about the project, are around the marketing of the book and the promotion of the book and what the author is going to do. What size is their platform? What is their network like? How were they going to present the book? How much speaking do they do? Those are the questions publishers need to know now before they will even think about it. It’s much more about that, than it is about the idea for the book. It’s about what that author is capable of doing. It makes sense, actually. You cannot create a book, leave it with a publisher or, however you do it, whichever route you do, and expect the book to sell unless a lot of work goes into it. And the work that really really succeeds most, is the work that’s done by the author.


Dave Harries: [00:23:12] Bryony, I wanted to ask you a little bit about you. We’ve already talked about why you wrote the book and the fact that it’s completely integrated into a business and you give it away with, you mentioned, conferences and courses and things like that. I wonder whether you could comment on how, if you could sort of weigh it in the balance, probably quite a difficult thing to do, but, the book as a calling card, as a credibility prover, if you like, as opposed to the book as just a useful piece of marketing knowledge; is it possible to assess which is more important or is it both the same?


Bryony Thomas: [00:23:49] I don’t think it’s possible to separate those things. There’s no credibility in something that’s not useful.


Dave Harries: [00:23:53] Except that sometimes people see that you’re a published author and they might think: wow she’s a published author. Without even reading the book.


Bryony Thomas: [00:24:01] I think that’s less so these days. Particularly, certainly, in the circles that Sue and I move in, I think there are so many really awful books out there. I mean, truly shocking.


Dave Harries: [00:24:14] Would you like to name a few?


Bryony Thomas: [00:24:16] No. I’ll let you build up your own list. Sometimes I meet someone, and I think they’re really credible and then I see their book. And it makes me question their credibility. And I think, actually there are too many books that are done too quickly. And so, for me, true credibility comes from a book that does set down roots; that does actually change the way that people do things. And so, the idea of a book as a business card, to me it’s one of those statements that makes me want to physically hurt someone, actually.


Dave Harries: [00:24:53] Oh really, I won’t say that again, then.


Bryony Thomas: [00:24:54] It’s like one of those…it’s just daft. if you want a business card, have a business card. If you want a book, then you want people to read it. And so, these two, it’s a phrase that gets bandied around. And I genuinely, just don’t think there’s any credibility in a book that nobody reads.


Dave Harries: [00:25:13] Okay, fair enough. But this is something we have talked about quite a lot, and I think certainly, there is a view out there that.


Bryony Thomas: [00:25:20] Oh, yes, there is. I mean there’s a view about all sorts of marketing techniques out there, that is complete nonsense. And I do believe the book is a business card is one of those.


Dave Harries: [00:25:28] Right okay. And I take absolutely your point about how a book could potentially damage your credibility if somebody actually reads it and finds it to be not very good.


Bryony Thomas: [00:25:36] Or just picks it up. I mean, sometimes someone will say: I’ve written a book. And they’ll hand it to me. And a few things that just makes me shudder slightly, are things that someone, who’s not very well known, with their photo on the front. It’s just not professional. It’s not business-like. It just smacks of ego, in many ways. And, if anything, that’s the opposite. Your book should be about the reader, not about you. You come across through providing value. And sometimes it’s the quality. You know, they’re flimsy; they could be read in half an hour. I did once, once on a plane read two books back-to-back, and one was written by somebody who runs a business locally and it is an incredible piece of production. Absolutely beautiful, and I know he took years to write it. And then I read one by somebody who had said to me: I knock books out in an afternoon. You could tell.


Dave Harries: [00:26:36] Well, I’m quite relieved you could tell actually. Because it would be quite depressing if you couldn’t. Sue, I must ask your opinion on this, because obviously this is quite an interesting…Bryony is going against what a lot of people do say about books and business. What do you think?


Sue Richardson: [00:26:52] Well, I think that a lot of the kind of ‘the book as the business card’, is the argument that anyone can publish a book very, very quickly and very, very easily these days, by self-publishing. And if it’s done quickly; if it’s done through one of these very, very speedy print-on-demand routes that are designed for self-publishers; what does that mean? Does that mean that you’ve had a professional team work with you to create a book? A book it’s not just throwing down a load of thoughts onto paper and bashing up into some system that produces a poorly put together product. A book should be a beautiful thing. And you know, as Bryony knows well, when I speak, I always talk about that danger of…okay, a book can do fantastic things for you, if it’s done well. But if it’s done badly, if it’s not done in the right way, then a book can damage your reputation and make you look idiotic. Because actually, if you’ve thrown something together just because you want a business card, you don’t want a proper book and it’s poorly produced, what does that say about you and your business? That’s the thing. You wouldn’t do that with your website. You wouldn’t do that with anything else that you do.


Bryony Thomas: [00:28:12] I’m trying to think of a couple of exceptions, just to argue my own point. You can tell I do debates. So, there is someone who I know, who writes books very quickly and they do very well for her, that’s Julie Creffield.


Sue Richardson: [00:28:25] Oh yes, she does do it.


Bryony Thomas: [00:28:29] And we’ve had this discussion, Julie and I are very good friends and we approach publishing so differently. Julie will write a book very quickly and she’ll put it up on Amazon herself. We couldn’t be more different in the way we’ve approached publishing. And I think the reason it works for Julie and wouldn’t work for me, is are our brand character and our market. So, Julie runs a blog called Too Fat To Run. Her audience are people who tend to read blogs and magazines. And so, actually her style of writing, and the immediacy of it and almost the rawness of it, is spot on for Julie. Whereas for myself, who is a more considered, more academic individual and that’s what my clients like, this would be anathema.


Dave Harries: [00:29:19] Okay. I understand that.


Sue Richardson: [00:29:21] But I would argue that actually what Julie is doing, is content marketing.


Bryony Thomas: [00:29:25] Absolutely agree with you.


Sue Richardson: [00:29:27] As much as…even there, it’s not about a business card. It’s not about necessarily, even massively about credibility.


Bryony Thomas: [00:29:36] It’s selling a course. It’s usually selling a course.


Sue Richardson: [00:29:36] Exactly. It’s actually a content marketing exercise, at which she does absolutely excel. So, there is a place for it.


Dave Harries: [00:29:44] We’re just about out of time now, sadly, but Bryony before we let you escape from the studio, what’s the best thing that you could say about writing a book? What’s the best thing that’s come from it?


Bryony Thomas: [00:29:55] Oh goodness. It’s radically changed my life in ways that I couldn’t possibly have anticipated. And so, this year I’m running my first annual conference and we’re down to, as of the last count, 17 tickets remaining with two months left to purchase. And things like that are just incredible. And I think the thing that has astounded me is how robust it is in so many different contexts. So, I wrote it with a particular context in mind, as any author does. But it’s been taken in, the methodology has now been taken into consumer, charity, recruitment, behaviour change, as well as marketing. And it’s stood up, and I sometimes sit there and kind of look at it and go: well I know I wrote it, but my goodness, it works.


Dave Harries: [00:30:48] Well that’s a really nice note to end on. Thank you very much, Bryony Thomas, for joining us in the studio. It’s been an absolute pleasure having you here. And very revealing. And I hope Watertight Marketing continues to sell and do fantastic things for you for as long as possible. That’s all we have time for this week. So, my thanks to my expert co-presenter, Sue Richardson, as well as Bryony, of course. You can get lots more help and advice on writing and publishing your book by joining our Facebook group, The Right Book Project, where you can also leave a comment, ask Sue your questions or give us your ideas for future shows. Or why not visit our website at therightbookcompany.com, to sign up for one of Sue’s popular webinars or read her blog. We’ll be back in a couple of weeks’ time with our next episode, so, please join us then. And in the meantime, keep writing.